tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1892134081049774386.post6271994829193597813..comments2023-12-02T09:37:08.472-05:00Comments on Autism Jabberwocky: A Critical Look At The Level and Nature of Autistic IntelligenceM.J.http://www.blogger.com/profile/12033918835169823548noreply@blogger.comBlogger13125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1892134081049774386.post-8326173403770082842011-10-30T13:58:18.748-04:002011-10-30T13:58:18.748-04:00Certainly not 'only accessible', but autis...Certainly not 'only accessible', but autistics' access to higher dimensional visualising of problem spaces naturally makes many solutions more available. This says nothing about their frequent problems in lower dimensions where the rules are more animal than logical.nerkulhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04927301561819474314noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1892134081049774386.post-24828117837615424502011-10-28T12:49:11.093-04:002011-10-28T12:49:11.093-04:00Nerkul,
I'm sorry, but the idea that some sol...Nerkul,<br /><br />I'm sorry, but the idea that some solutions are only accessible to people with autism is just romantic thinking and, quite frankly, rubbish. People with autism are a subset of all people and there is nothing inherent in autism that would set them apart from the rest of humanity.<br /><br />If a person with autism can solve a problem in a certain way (i.e. animals and Temple Grandin) then the right "typical" person would be capable of doing the same. It all depends on the perspective that a person is coming from. <br /><br />Nor is there really anything to the idea that people without autism don't understand novel situations, it all depends on the specific person. Some people will rely of heuristics, some will understand situations quickly, but most people will use a combination of both.M.J.https://www.blogger.com/profile/12033918835169823548noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1892134081049774386.post-18855895795684572862011-10-23T14:34:48.006-04:002011-10-23T14:34:48.006-04:00How fluid intelligence fits into that is deeply in...How fluid intelligence fits into that is deeply interesting, btw. It would follow from everything I've suggested that nonautistics don't <i>understand</i> novel situations. They apply heuristics and prior knowledge and, mostly, it works well and quickly. Autistics would use their fluid intelligence to work out solutions, which may take a while.<br /><br />An example from social dynamics: many times I've seen psychopaths and other actors completely dupe nonautistics while being transparent to autistics. These are superficially standard situations where the heuristic solution leads you to precisely the wrong conclusion. Optical illusions are another example: it's typical that autistics aren't fooled.<br /><br />So, to me it makes a lot of sense that autistics have superior fluid intelligence. They simply need it. They practice a lot, and results have shown that fluid intelligence can be improved with practice.nerkulhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04927301561819474314noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1892134081049774386.post-9370688460642493952011-10-23T13:54:27.107-04:002011-10-23T13:54:27.107-04:00It's definitely true. The searchspace techniqu...It's definitely true. The searchspace techniques in that study Michelle Dawson commented at length on are an example, plus if you just look at how autistics struggle with novel situations (which require heuristics, local optima) but once they have familiarity with a domain can construct new solutions that aren't accessible to nonautistics. This is visible to varying degrees depending on intelligence, which obviously varies for autistics as much as for anyone, but if you look at famous examples like Temple Grandin, Paul Dirac or Alan Turing, they each abstracted general solutions in problem domains where equally smart nonautistics were using local optima. It's a definite feature. You could see it in your daughter if you watched with an open mind.nerkulhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04927301561819474314noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1892134081049774386.post-68560523759292002482011-10-22T11:36:33.222-04:002011-10-22T11:36:33.222-04:00"Autistics like to find more general solution..."Autistics like to find more general solutions rather than local optimal"<br /><br />I don't think that statement is true in general nor does there seem to be sufficient evidence to support that theory. <br /><br />If anything it seems like the reverse would be true. Autism seems to force people to focus on the individual details rather than looking at the larger picture. Sort of like focusing on all of the details of a single tree and ignoring the fact that they are in the middle of a forest.<br /><br />On a more realistic note, children with autism have a hard time generalizing skills. Even when you manage to teach them how to do something specially (i.e. put on a shirt) they cannot always apply that skill on a more general level (i.e. put on a jacket).M.J.https://www.blogger.com/profile/12033918835169823548noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1892134081049774386.post-3926534945075981882011-10-21T17:30:54.658-04:002011-10-21T17:30:54.658-04:00Reasonable to suppose that Raven's test the sa...Reasonable to suppose that Raven's test the same searchspace techniques that Michelle Dawson writes about <a href="http://autismcrisis.blogspot.com/2011/01/are-autistic-people-lost-in-space.html" rel="nofollow">here</a>. Autistics like to find more general solutions rather than local optima. Anything that can be modelled abstractly would seem to be amenable to this approach.nerkulhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04927301561819474314noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1892134081049774386.post-80363297143147359102011-10-21T12:52:01.415-04:002011-10-21T12:52:01.415-04:00Nerkul,
I am not sure what exactly the Raven'...Nerkul,<br /><br />I am not sure what exactly the Raven's tests would translate into in "real life" for people with autism. The standard definition seems to be abstract reasoning that is independent of a situation but I don't think it can represent that for someone with autism. <br /><br />Many (but not all) people on the spectrum have major problems dealing with novel situations or unfamiliar problems - the exact thing that having a high fluid intelligence would help you deal with.<br /><br />So maybe the repetition and structure of the Raven's test helps to get it past the interference of autism and measure some underlying abstract reasoning that can't normally be applied because of the situational difficulties of autism?<br /><br />Or maybe the structure of the test plays into the obsession with sameness that so many people on the spectrum have and so their brains are able to deal better with the repetitive task?<br /><br />Although after looking at all of the papers, I can't tell if the jump from the Wechsler to the Raven's tests in the autism groups really is larger than the jump that the "typical" groups also showed.<br /><br />The result could be nothing more than the standard bump that almost everyone in both papers showed between the tests.M.J.https://www.blogger.com/profile/12033918835169823548noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1892134081049774386.post-13516124538379096952011-10-19T20:10:49.568-04:002011-10-19T20:10:49.568-04:00If Raven's tests are a splinter skill, what do...If Raven's tests are a splinter skill, what do they translate to in the real world? Abstract mathematics of course but more everyday stuff too, surely?nerkulhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04927301561819474314noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1892134081049774386.post-77301484231874637042011-10-14T16:16:23.768-04:002011-10-14T16:16:23.768-04:00Hi Farmwifetwo,
It took me more than one attempt ...Hi Farmwifetwo,<br /><br />It took me more than one attempt to read the completed post all the way through for proof-reading, so I know what you mean.<br /><br />As for the general issue of whether ID is more common in the more severe forms of autism, I am on the fence. On the one hand I know that it is hard to get a good indication of intelligence in a person with more severe autism. But on the other, there is evidence that causes of ID (i.e. fragile x, creatine deficiency syndromes) can cause the behaviors of autism. <br /><br />And then there is the fact that, up until 20 years ago, the majority of cases of autism were seen in children and adults who did have other issues such as ID. It is only in the relatively recent past that autism is appearing frequently in otherwise "typical" children.<br /><br />So perhaps looking at the question as whether severe autism causes ID is the wrong way of looking at the problem. Maybe you have to consider autism as a symptom and look past it to the underlying cause and whether that cause is linked to ID or not.M.J.https://www.blogger.com/profile/12033918835169823548noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1892134081049774386.post-87955058161123484702011-10-14T16:03:31.866-04:002011-10-14T16:03:31.866-04:00Hi Jonathan,
You are quite right about there bein...Hi Jonathan,<br /><br />You are quite right about there being a number of other problems with the data in both papers. There were so many things off in both papers that it was hard to pick which problems to point out. So I went for the most egregious ones and didn't really mention the rest. But as you pointed out, the demographics of the participants, the raw scores, and the participant selection methods were also large problems.M.J.https://www.blogger.com/profile/12033918835169823548noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1892134081049774386.post-41400236517742019042011-10-14T08:06:16.837-04:002011-10-14T08:06:16.837-04:00So after attempting to read that, and getting lost...So after attempting to read that, and getting lost somewhere in the middle... need more coffee :)... I am going to simply say...<br /><br />"You cannot prove the severely autistic are severely MR as more than one autism blogger tries to claim". <br /><br />Why??<br /><br />They aren't VERBAL.<br /><br />I have one of those "severe" children. We now have the starts of language. We now have a 200+ word flipbook to teach sentences. I am currently testing Gr 1 English curriculum and although we haven't hit the stories section... he's zipping through it.<br /><br />The ONLY person that cared about the IQ test in Gr 3 was the gov'ts paperwork to get us in this LD class we're in. NOBODY else did, including the psychometrist that did all the testing. Everyone else wanted to know what he knew and could do. Psychometrists recommendation... since he could read easily (thanks to his Mommy) was "teach him to communicate, you'll be surprised what he knows". That has been and will continue to be our #1 goal.<br /><br />One thing I am surprised at is that although he is becoming verbal, and is definately a lot smarter than anyone thought possible, the "autism" isn't lessening. Whereas with elder bro and his speech delay - not autistic speech delay - it has eased to where he "passes for normal" most of the time.farmwifetwohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02680758336779501712noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1892134081049774386.post-57216480177646753202011-10-13T22:11:46.753-04:002011-10-13T22:11:46.753-04:00An addendum to the first post, in the beginning I ...An addendum to the first post, in the beginning I stated that in Souleries fMRI paper the autistics only did the scores faster, not better than the controls, so this would be irrelevant for drawing any inferences, but apparently some of the Raven's are timed tests if you are correct. <br /><br />Also, I should point out if there is any correlation with a high score on the Raven's to succeed academically, socially professionally or in any other life endeavor, Dawson neglected to mention this also.jonathanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14972394536850151087noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1892134081049774386.post-82978933110356067352011-10-13T22:09:49.549-04:002011-10-13T22:09:49.549-04:00I was unaware that they used two different tests o...I was unaware that they used two different tests or that any of the Raven's were timed. Souleries' fMRI study, based on data from the first paper, the autistic group did the raven's questions faster than the normal controls. You missed the fact that the differences between the asperger's children and the controls were far less than the differences between the adults, and the data for applicability that children with autism could be theoretically taught in different ways than typical children is more relevant than in adults, since adults are no longer in school. <br /><br />Also, a problem with Dawson (2007) and the recycled controls that you failed to touch upon as that the controls were not typical (to use your word and maybe Dawson and Souleries' also) in any manner. They were a self-selected sample recruited from a newspaper ad who were in the 70th percentile on the Wechsler. 70th percentile is not typical of any group. There were also mostly or all males and I seem to recall there have been some studies showing sex differences in scores in the Raven's between men and women. <br /><br />Another problem was that the autistic group in the first paper was not typical, the sex ratios were 12:1 M:F whereas they are 4:1 in a typical sample of autistics so this was not a representative group of autistics, since females are generally lower functioning and are more likely to have intellectual impairments, so the autistic group in the first paper were likely higher functioning. Also in Dawson (2007) the adult group of autistics averaged in the 50th percentile on the Weschler, so they were certainly not an intellectually impaired group in that study. In Boelte(2009), differences were found in the RPM v. Weschler in the autistic group but they were far less pronounced than in Dawson (2007) and they were limited to the lower functioning group (IQ 85 or less) if I remember correctly. They had a 3:1 ratio of males to females, a much more representative sample of autistics. Since the higher scores on RPM were confined to the lower functioning group, it is unlikely they would have got anywhere near the same results as in Dawson (2007) so in that sense Boelte (2009) may be a nonreplication of Dawson (2007). <br /><br />If there are no sex differences in typical males v. females in scores on the RPM Dawson neglected to mention it in her first study to account for the very atypical control group. There was no documentation that persons scoring in the 70th percentile on the Raven's would behave in the same way as a group of typical controls who score in the 50th in comparisons of Wechsler v. RPM. <br /><br />I wish I knew enough about statistics to comment on the rest of your analysis.jonathanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14972394536850151087noreply@blogger.com